This article was last modified on December 13, 2004.


Suicide as a Moral Alternative

Historically, suicide has been seen as a sin or a blemish on someone’s life. Some people see the act as a “cop out” and others see the act as being completely selfish and inherently evil. Christians have declared suicide the equivalent of murder and many consider it a one-way ticket to Hell. But new approaches to morality have made us as moral agents reconsider long-held beliefs. It is in this light that I wish to examine the arguments against suicide, debunk them, and then present further arguments in favor the position that suicide ought to be permitted.

Arguments Against Suicide

I. Suicide as a Sin

The traditional Christian point of view sees suicide as an unforgiveable sin earning the person an eternity in hell. Granted, if you are a serious Christian, I will most likely not be able to persuade you that suicide is acceptable. But also, if you are this person, you should not be considering suicide as an option, either, making convincing you a rather moot point. But for those more liberal Christians, there are two things I want to point out.

First, there is reason to believe that suicide is not prohibited by the Bible. Most people will say that the commandment barring killing would cover suicide without question. But consider two flaws in this logic: first, that the commandment is not as cut and dried as it appears. And second, that depending on the motive the suicide may be seen as acceptable. [1]

The words “thou shalt not kill” cannot be taken at literal face value. Clearly, we kill plants and animals anytime we need to eat, which happens multiple times a day. Revisionists will reply that the correct translation would be “murder” – limiting the sin to the death of humans. But both ancient and modern theology make exceptions for self-defense, killing in wartime, and in some instances executions (“an eye for an eye”). If Christianity can make room for exceptions allowing the killing of these people against their will (or, some might argue, with only implied consent) would it not be more acceptable to kill someone who is completely willing to end their life?

Some might still argue this is the intentional removal of God’s greatest gift to us (life) and therefore a sin. This is open for debate, but we can at least say for certain that God allows suicide if the motives are in His favor. This is called martyrdom – giving up our life for a just cause. Jesus committed suicide, after all. When put before the courts, he could simply not have acknowledged he was the king of the Jews and he would have been set free. His openly defiant act was the cause of his own death, and he knew this. While he did not personally hammer in the nails to his body, he was responsible for these actions. This is comparable to what is known as “suicide by cop.”

The argument that suicide leads to Hell has little Biblical support. Those who have committed suicide in the Bible (such as Judas Iscariot) were not said to have gone to Hell, when the author could have easily made an example of them. This is not to say there would be no Final Judgment (if you believe in such a thing), but to think that one final act would cancel out all the good that was accomplished in a lifetime seems improbable. We could list any number of verses that cite God as being “loving” and “forgiving” which would seem to be in contrast with a God that condemns a good-hearted man.

II. Suicide as Selfish

One of the more common arguments against suicide is the viewpoint that the act is selfish. But I think this is more of a personal attack on the person’s decision (and a scare tactic) than a reliably sound position. Especially once we consider what it truly means to be “selfish”.

Someone who is selfish only considers themself when they choose an action, or seek out options that favor themself. But we can argue that choosing life can be selfish and further that many instances of suicide are clearly not selfish at all.

Life in general is selfish because the primary drive human beings have is self-preservation. Our every breath, every meal, every hour of work we put in is ultimately for ourselves and to promote our own lives. Within these lives we might assist others or do truly altruistic acts, but the very foundation of human life relies on selfishness in order for us to go on living. This can even be said more so in Western civilization where the goal is always “more” and capitalism is the norm. Is suicide selfish? Perhaps, but in one way or another all acts we do are selfish, making this point moot.

And are all suicides selfish? Of course not. People who think of suicide as selfish generally picture young people who hung themself in a fit of depression, leaving families and friends to grieve for months on end. Whether or not this is selfish (and we could argue either side), this is not the most common suicide. In fact, suicides occur most often in the elderly who no longer have children relying on them. Most people do not want their parents to die. But, conversely, most parents want what is best for their children. When an illness is terminal, there will be a death coming (and hence grieving) in the near future regardless of how this death occurs. A parent could choose to struggle in a painful existence in a hospital bed for a few months, or they could pass away quietly in their sleep. The latter method is not only more comfortable for the individual, but would most likely reduce the suffering and worry of the children. And while this should not be a primary concern, the money saved on expensive medical bills can instead be sued for the family to accomplish goals the deceased would have wanted them to – such as sending little Sarah to college.

Some will still say I ignore or downplay the impact that one death will have on another in our society. And this is true. However, the grand picture is really a matter of perspective. We live in a culture of death that puts the emphasis on the passing of an individual rather than the life of that person. Perhaps the problem is not suicide as much as the problem is our culture? While in America we spend our time grieving and asking why, the Irish traditionally have a wake where there is much rejoicing and a celebration. Why focus on the death of anyone when we have their memories to share and live on inside us? [2]

An argument for suicide being altruistic in general was posited by musician Bobby Gaylor. While his argument was most likely not meant to be taken seriously, there is truth in his words. Deaths do often create job openings, apartment openings, and in general lower the overpopulated world we live in. The natural resources we destroy in a lifetime would not be destroyed, and neither would any that would have been used by our children and exponential grandchildren (if we off ourselves before procreating). Call this view dim or abstract, but in the grand sense we could easily say the benefits far outweigh the temporary negatives.

III. Utilitarianism Argument

William Godwin, an optimist, argued that suicide was always a mistake because living was more pleasurable than death. Any argument that weighs pleasure against pain is called a utilitarian argument. But by his own methods, Godwin was wrong. As mentioned above, there is little doubt death would be less painful than the suffering of some illness. And if we wish to continue the abstract Bobby Gaylor argument, we would say in the long run more pleasure is created than pain. So to say suicide is always wrong based on these premises is simply ignorant.

Arguments For Suicide

With the arguments against suicide set aside for now, we can turn to the arguments that are actually in favor of suicide (not necessarily encouraging the act, but at least allowing it to occur). Some of these arguments were talked about already as responses to the above ponts, including seeing suicide as an altruistic act or as a way to minimize one’s own suffering. But these alone are not the only positive views of suicide, as we will soon see.

I. Suicide as Honorable

When we say that suicide is generally thought of as bad, sinful, or wrong, we are assuming a Western viewpoint (essentially, a Christian position). The fact of the matter is that other cultures think of suicide as a possibly good thing. The Japanese, for example, consider suicide as honorable. If you have disgraced your family, there is no shame in offing yourself rather than having your stain blemish the entire family. In older days, Japanese Samurais practiced Seppuku – killing yourself after losing a battle. This was seen as more honorable than coming home (or back to the ruler) as a loser who did not fight to the end. The practice was such an honored tradition that an entire ritual was built around it. In many cases, seppuku was even respected enough by the enemy that they would give the samurai an opportunity to end themselves rather than be executed.

Seppuku was outlawed in 1868 as the Eastern world began to become more “civilized” or Western. This hardly stopped the practice and is often considered honorable even today in the minds of the people. General Nogi and his wife did it after the death of the Emperor in 1912. Author Yukio Mishima committed seppuku in public in 1970 after a failed coup attempt. And even as recently as 1999, Masaharu Nonaka, a 58-year old employee of Bridgestone in Japan committed suicide because his company had forced him to retire. This act created a whole new movement: risutora seppuku (seppuku due to corporate restructuring).

Many people in India also think of suicide as honorable and romantic under the right conditions. When husbands would be burned at their funerals, the wives would jump on to the flames and burn themself alive as a sign of devotion. [3] This practice, which has been illegal since 1829 but still occurs, is known as sati (named after Sati, the wife of Shiva, who killed herself in this manner). This would be considered an abomination in America, but in the right frame of mind the identical act conveys another meaning. Without the threat of eternal hell, society has little reason to ostracize a potentially beautiful human response.

II. Free Will

The most basic argument is the argument of free will, or the belief that we control our own actions. This, combined with the idea that we own our bodies (keep in mind, we are not our bodies but merely control them under the dualist tradition) makes free will a perfectly acceptable choice. If we can decide how we are going to live, why should anyone else be able to tell us how to die?

The biggest problem with this approach is that we ought to limit ourselves to doing things freely as long as others are not affected adversely (with some exceptions, of course). If you are a single mother of three boys, killing yourself will likely put these dependents in a poor situation. But weighing the options, if your choice is not disadvantaging others, there should be no moral objection (other than those refuted above) to your personal choice.

III. Existentialist Concerns

With an existential viewpoint, suicide always remains an option. In fact, Albert Camus famously stated with existentialism being the prominent viewpoint, suicide remains the only true philosophical problem. Essentially, existentialism denies that life has any “great meaning” and only has the meanings we as humans put into it. If our death does not matter, there is no reason to prevent it.

Furthermore, suicide might even be a more powerful concept under the existential viewpoint if we assign meaning to this act as well. There is little meaning to a man found dead in his bathtub – this happens every day around the world in any metropolitan area (suicide rates are far greater than most assume). But why not do the exact same thing in an area that would add meaning or symbolism? What was a private action becomes a political protest simply by being on the right street corner at the right time – without having to do anything differently. (Although I did not cover political protest as a reason that suicide might be positive, this is mainly due to the general audience and could well be considered an entirely separate topic worth exploring.)

IV. Nihilist Concerns

Nihilism takes existentialism a step further and denies that meaning exists at all. All beliefs are empty. All values are nil. Under this viewpoint, life is completely worthless. Although, at the same time, death is completely worthless, too. Suicide has no point, and life has no point. So a nihilist is no better off alive or dead. If you subscribe to this view and wish to commit suicide, there is no reason not to – you are not gaining or losing anything. I am personally not a nihilist, so there is little more I can say on this matter.

Conclusion

Suicide has long been considered as something wrong regardless of the motives or outcome. But this is simply not so, as we have now seen. Christians will still oppose suicide as this is contradictory to their confused moral values, but I hope for those considering the option (either literally, philosophically or academically) that the issue was presented in a more clear light. This centuries-old specter of dogmatism over the land has begun to be lifted, and with time and understanding of the facts, together we can make a brighter tomorrow through the freedom of both ideas and self.

Notes

[1] James Skemp has brought to the author’s attention that the second point apparently follows from and is dependent on the first. However, this is not how this was meant to be taken. While we could argue that once we create “wiggle room” in a commandment, this opens the gates for exceptions to the rule, that was not the point. The second point was that regardless of whether or not the commandment is forbidding suicide, there may still be times in which God is accepting of suicides.

[2] I think this aspect of our culture extends into relationships, as well. We are a culture that lingers about our losses and drinks our problems away rather than reflecting positively on our accomplishments. And while I am not against grieving or heartbreak, are these the emotions we should want to be engulfed in?

[3] Skemp does not see this as being a primarily sincere gesture, but rather one pushed upon the women as second-class citizens. He says: “Unfortunately, those who didn’t [commit sati] were ostracized [by society] or worse.” There is some merit to his point (the use of “drugs” or “social pressure” have occurred on occasion), though I do not believe fear of ostracism was the primary motive. Tradition is a powerful influence on its own, as can be evidenced by the fact Catholics today still practice cannibalism on a weekly basis.

Also try another article under Philosophical, Political, Religious
or another one of the writings of Gavin.

119 Responses to “Suicide as a Moral Alternative”

  1. joshua Says:

    i would also like to point out that the “selfish” argument can be applied to the people around the suicidist as well. they selfishly want that person to continue to suffer an existence worse than death (why else would suicide be so appealing?) so that they dont have to deal with the person’s death.

  2. jamil Says:

    want to die help

  3. kahlil Says:

    Excellent writing, thank you. My girlfriend and soulmate committed suicide March 20 and I feel that the ultimate act of love would be to do the same. I wish my family wouldn’t have to suffer, that’s the only thing keeping me here.

  4. Ian Says:

    Murder is killing with malice and/or predetermination. It isn’t revisionists who are saying the Old Testament says, “murder” it’s what the actual original version of the Bible said. Anyways, killing in war is not murder, nor is hitting someone with your car and killing them (on accident) murder. Just thought I’d bring those quick points to your knowledge.

  5. Babalola Adebayo Says:

    Thanks for a beautiful site as this,pls i am writing a project on suicide,actually the project title is suicide:a philosophical appraisal,your site has given me insights and i will be very grateful if you can get me moredata on suicide and send to my box.thanks.

  6. Lex Says:

    Great article. I wanted to comment, because I myself have suicidal thoughts. I have had them as long as I can remember, but I haven’t tried commiting suicide. I’m 18 years old and I have accepted a long time ago that my life has no meaning, therefore I will take that step to end my life. To tell you the truth It’s been so long that I’ve had this feeling that people might think I will never do it. But there are things that have been keeping me from doing it yet. The first and most important one is my Mother… I love her a lot(even if I don’t show it to her), and I know that my death will make her suffer so much… that I can’t bring myself to do it. As a result of this for years I have pushed her away, I have been hateful and disrespectful towards her and all those who care for me. I am currently really lonesome, and sometimes I hate it like this, but it’s my only way. Another reason that makes it hard for me to end my life is my two cousins, the are more than brothers/cousins to me. I woud hate to dissapoint the two of them, it would break my heart. My cousins are the only ones I don’t push away, I dearly love them and they feel the same way towards me. I sometimes feel that it would be indeed selfish on my part, but for their happiness of having me here I suffer, I suffer very much. A finally decided long ago that I will wait for my mother’s death to come first. But it just keeps getting worst and I don’t think I will hold on for much longer. This is the first time someone is gonna know about this, I haven’t told anyone. I just wanted to say this.

    ~Anonymous

  7. Valentine Says:

    Very nice article!

    If we take a Christian approach to this whole dilemma over morality and “rightness” of suicide then perhaps the same Christian’s should consider reading Saint Augustine’ writings, because it is to him who they owe a lot of interpretations of the doctrines.
    Also, the Bible was translated numberous times… The earliest Greek manuscript is dating back to like 60 AD. (I am most likely wrong on the date since it has been a long time since I have taken the Bible study course, but the point is that the original cannot be located). Therefore, how can anyone be truly certain (faith aside), that the commandment about not killing is indeed translated correctly?

    Suicide is only as selfish as a person wants it to be. Yes, I would be sad if my sister commited suicide, but I have the decency to respect her wishes. One can only be resposible for their own feelings and actions. Hence, if a person wants to die, their friends or relatives have only control over their own feelings, which does not land them the right to prevent suicide.
    Those who commit suicide due to a mental illness are just as justified of doing so as if they were suffering from a physical based disease. The pain is just as real in either case!

    Anyway, great article and here is my fifty five cents.

  8. Alex Says:

    I myself have to agree with what has been writen in this article. I have for the last 10 or so years (I’m 24) felt that suicide would be the best option for myself. I think that in order for humanity to move on we as a species need to develop our view on this taboo.
    I think that in time suicide will be accepted by society as an individual choice that should not only be respected but rather encouraged. The two things that stop me from ‘commiting’ this act are general death anxiety, as all humans have programed into themselves, and fear of upsetting those who love me.
    But if people were logical about their feelings for people who no longer want to live then they would not be preventing them from acting on their ideas but rather helping them, and I note that this has been said by someone else on this site, it is wrong for people to assume that a persons life can bring as much joy to that person as it does to others.

  9. Sara Says:

    Are you people stupid?! This site, and any that are related to it should be illegal. Suicide is selfish and you go straight to hell. I dont care what damn religion you are, GOD rules all. He is the only lord. One day you crazy, selfish freaks will see and you will pay with eternal pain and suffering in a firey existance.

  10. anotherrockinthebarrel Says:

    ooo we all fear now.
    God doesn’t exist, period

    well i don’t really mean that , i don’t know if god exist, but i think that the hell thing is a weak argument against suicide, that is if you can be open minded (which clearly the above person wasn´t)but it’s an opinion. we are not stupid, we just aren’t fundamentalistic

    i think the most 3 difficult things to overcome in suicide are:
    -death itself and waht it involves (suffering , risk of no dying, what is beyond)
    -making others suffer
    -and if you belive in god, and believe you are going to hell if comitt suicide, that’s just as heavy. (its hard to overcome, but i sustain it is weak as a argument against sucide)

  11. Drake Says:

    Two things. I still dont get why suicide isnt selfish. And two, what the heck is up with the math problem. Stupid people cant post or something, is that it…

  12. strivinglife Says:

    Stupid robots can’t post, actually.

  13. Anna B Says:

    My boyfriend wants to end his life.
    Gavin your site helped me understand some different aspects of suicide, I’d like to be supportive but it’s hard when you’re so close.
    He’s not hurting or upset or pained about anything he just feels like his work on earth is done, he feels tired and in a matter-of-fact way he doesn’t want to wait around for death.
    Your site has lent some insights, it’s hard for me to understand that it doesn’t have anything to do with me because I feel so close to him. He’s only 43 and I feel like that’s too early to leave this world, to say ‘you’re done’. He’s made some amazing contributions to society with research and discoveries. Sometimes I think he’s a tortured genius.
    Still trying to understand but having some trouble making it make sense to me.

  14. claudio mariñas Says:

    thank you, i have relatives who commit suicide… now i understnd why they did that… but it is so hard to accept it.

  15. Aidan Mclaren Says:

    I posted here to say, thank you Gavin for your wisdom.

    And people like Sara is why the human race is utterly sick and demented, I won’t go into detail about religion but I will say you disgust me for your immaturity and apathetic behavior.

  16. Jessica Says:

    “…killing in war is not murder, nor is hitting someone with your car and killing them (on accident) murder…”

    Is it not murder, then, to kill a man in his house while his wife watches? If you’re put in court for having run someone down with your car, is it not “vehicular manslaughter”?

  17. Stan Says:

    Interesting read;
    to Sara: Comment # 9: Go and watch Opera or Dr Phil this is not for you.

    I am 22 atm, and since i could remember I’ve always had questions about the purpose of Life and have alas discovered that life is absolutely pointless, Either you look at it from a Religious point of view (eg. Christianity)or from the concept of Evolution. I do not believe I have enough knowledge to confortably decide which one is true therefore i always consider both to be true and make my decision from that. The problem that arises with Religion specifically Christianity is that God himself can not be trusted. absurd statement hey, patiance, it is logical and fair for a craftman to be commended and criticized for his craft but it is not for God to be blamed for weekness of his own creation. Granted he was deceived by the devil, the fact that he had not enough defense mechanisms to immunize himself from such deception clearly puts God on the hot seat. The that the very first human screwed up should say something about us as humans and our lord God. should I say more about religion?

    Now the problem with Evolution is it denies each human any significance from the other and therefore purpose, this would not be much of a problem if we were not made to believe that we are more than just mammals. Indeed we are mammals and the only thing that defferentiates us is a property that was instilled in us all. Hope, hope for a better tomorrow a better job, a better life, and that one that the Lord jesus will descend from the skies to grant us eternal peace. hope is the only reason you’re alive and reading this it is how Nature or God keeps the ball rolling, it is futile. Who do I think I am to challenge God? One might ask, and to this I would answer, One that has been granted the ability to do so. It is simple, you tell a man to crawl a certain distance he will gladly do it, but you tell him it would be easier for him to run and you implant a property in him that will compell him to always go for a physically easier option, and you tell him to crawl he will look at you and advise you of the meaning of sanity.

  18. Mike Says:

    Oooohhh….pretty deep Stan. Please stop, all that thinking makes me want to move forward with my own suicide. Seriously though. I can’t disagree totally with anything that has been said by all posters. Personal viewpoints (beliefs) are the culmination of LIFE experiences. No one person is right and no one person is wrong. We believe what we believe. Some believe what they see. Some see what they believe. I have been insecure about myself since I was 5 years old. I am now 37, struggle with bipolar depression and find life to be a miserable existence.
    I have been given a peek into the spiritual realm and I Believe that there is a God and afterlife. My problem is that even though I have absolute faith in existence of the Divine, it does not help me deal with the trials of humanity. I find myself more desirous of leaving this hell on earth and all the selfishness that humans exhibit such as materialism, greed and defiling nature’s gifts. I am not perfect, just aware. Sorry if I am coming off like some self righteous elitist intellectual. I am just a lonely, depressed and hopeless individual trying to vent a little.

  19. Maxfield Says:

    Suicide is frequently an easy solution for people who are too weak to accept responsibility for their their own happiness and satisfaction with life. An honorable person has a duty to live with dignity and pride for love they carry within themselves. If you are considering suicide, first submit your reasons to ADM Stockdale, or any former P.O.W. who spent over seven years enduring horrible torture and isolation for the sake of their country and comrades. I encourage all who’ve read this article to seek out the Stoic philosophy that has helped people create hope for themselves and others, even when they lost every imaginable comfort and lived in REAL physical and mental agony.

  20. Joshua Says:

    Sara said this: “Are you people stupid?! This site, and any that are related to it should be illegal. Suicide is selfish and you go straight to hell. I dont care what damn religion you are, GOD rules all. He is the only lord. One day you crazy, selfish freaks will see and you will pay with eternal pain and suffering in a firey existance.”

    Well, so he will reward you Sara, for living a life in anger, but punishing us eternally for us wanting what we feel is the best thing for ourselves, but don’t wanting to hurt others. I mean, your faith has blinded you with rage, and that can NEVER be a good thing. Suicide, can be, however, just that. The only thing keeping ME alive is the fact that I cannot hurt my mom by killing myself, she would be SOO sad :'( …. i just don’t know what to do

  21. Norah Says:

    Dear Sara… If you consider the contents of this site to be illegal, then why are you commiting one it? thats pointless. You see,I myself am a Nilhilist, and i think that you are..quite immature

  22. Superhero Says:

    This was very enjoyable reading, very open minded. A lot more enjoyable than the usual fare on suicide available on the web. “You wanna kill yourself? Quick accept Jesus!” LOL.
    Thaks again
    SH

  23. Alex Says:

    Adressing your question, Drake:
    Following your line of thought, you wouldn’t have posted, nor would sara or many of the others.

  24. gavin Says:

    Jestern adds, via e-mail: “I’m looking for the best way to insure the end will come quickly and with the least amount of pain and suffering to all, including myself. I’m tired and not in the best of health so I know It’s time to go.”

  25. joshua Says:

    hmm, any schemes i ever considered were more based on anonymity than quickness or painlessness. meaning to anyone other than me it would appear that i simply dissappeared, so as to cause people around me as little pain as possible. (they were always quite elaborate lol)

    anyway a little internet research rendered this http://www.cat.pdx.edu/~chuff/holiday.html

    looks like a good resource with a good sense of humour, heres some quotes that had me laughing out loud (literally)

    method 14. JUMPING IN FRONT OF TRAINS
    Time: Seconds (or hours if unlucky)

    The other problem with guns is that is is bloody messy. Your next of kin will really _enjoy_ cleaning up after you, washing the coagulated blood & brains out of corners etc…

    i’ve also heard of something called Aminorex (4-methylaminorex) which was briefly prescribed as an appetite suppressant, but taken off the market since it had fatal side effects… which is hardly a problem!!

    method 8. DECAPITATION
    Time: Couple of seconds before conciousness fades
    Available: Happen to have a train line nearby? Or a guillotine perhaps?

    anyway, they start to get humorous after you pass the poison one

    although being “tired” hardly seems like a reason to kill himself, but hey, its his life. i’d just encourage him to actually think about it rather than just pull some rash, off-the-wall spontaneous, self-pity shit

    i fully believe in suicide (and euthanasia, in my class about finding a job they kept talking about benefits like health care, and they were appalled that at 4 million dollars some guy’s health insurance quit paying for his weird ass blood problem, i was sitting there appalled that they didnt cut it off as soon as they realized it was going to cost 4 million, i dont think any life is worth more than $100k) but suicide should be thought out, considered, and weighed. it should be chosen because it is the best choice, not because you’re feeling a little under the weather

  26. James Skemp Says:

    Yet, one might argue that there’s always tomorrow – things could always change. At what point does information about a life become sufficient to ‘prematurely’ end it?

    Likewise, at what point does the quality of a life suggest death?

    Survival of the fittest certainly plays into line here. With the miracles of science, someone who would have lived minutes, hours, or years, is now almost guaranteed a semi-full life. Someone who was depressed, if such a person used to exist, could find out fairly quick if they wanted to live or die.

    Personally, I’m convinced that life is striving, but not convinced that striving is, in itself, good.

    So … what do you think?

  27. joshua Says:

    i think if medical bills are more expensive than you value your life to be, you should euthanize yourself. its completely selfish to be that kind of a burden to everyone else, draining cash reserves, causing bankrupcy, abusing life insurance, just so you can have a few more breaths

    over a period of time (preferrably an extended period of time, there is no sense in being impulsive) if you evaluate your life and say “i would rather not finish this off” then you at least have a grounds to commit suicide (other factors should be evaluated though)

    its true that anything can change at any time, but consider holdem, you have 5, 6 of spades and limp in. the flop comes 8 of spades, 9 of diamonds, someone bets a large bet and you know you’re hard up to win, but you have 2 cards to come which could make a flush, a straight, maybe trips or a precarious 2 pair so you call, knowing its mathamatically wrong, and it hurts but you do it anyway. the turn comes an A of clubs, the other guy goes all in. now, you can say “theres an 8% chance this last card could give me a straight” but are you willing to go all in on that? say you call, put all your money in, 11.5 times you lose it all, and only 1 time you double up.

    this is the same thing, only instead of money (or chips) you’re gambling with your death. we’ll assume youre considering suicide because you’ve called to the turn (say 5 years of depression) and just want to fold your hand. in this case, you would be worse off to stay around, suffering for the rest of your life many times more than things would change and you’d enjoy the rest of your life

    aside from that, not all decisions are made because people are sad, im not sad at all and i’d happily die if i had no family, even still i enjoy almost every day, i smile and amuse myself and others, usually go to sleep content, there are a million factors to consider, if you decide that suicide is the best option, that should be because you considered the likeliness of changing your mind later on and decided it was an improbable outcome

  28. Aidan Mclaren Says:

    To Maxfield:

    There is no such thing as happiness, that is a delusion as much as free will and true love is.

    Simply put, you are allowed to do anything and do not have an obligation for hypocrites who say suicide is selfish, just remember, you always commit suicide too late in the end…

  29. eje Says:

    the question of right and wrong of suicide is eternal.

    suicide is a thought often in my mind. not that i’m pressuring myself to do it, not at all. mostly out of curiosity, out of admiration for those that have had a choice and yet chose to end it. i think there is something admirable in those circumstances, because you say no to pleasure, to life, to experiences and opportunities… there may be other ways to demonstrate but suicide is ultimately the most symbolic way. why would decent filled human beings decide to go? to prove that there is something better, to prove that physical pleasures arent important..

    if i suicide, it will be out of curiosity to find out whats after life? until then i will keep whispering to myself ‘not just yet’.

  30. Ron Says:

    I feel I should share something regarding Near Death Experiences (NDE’s) in regard to suicide. Dr Raymond Moody studied these in his books, ‘Life After Life'(1975) and ‘Reflections on Life After Life'(1977). He notes that the accounts of suicide survivors differed dramatically from other people’s.
    One, a woman, who had attempted suicide, found herself trapped in the very situation she had tried to escape. Another, a man who had tried to join his dead wife (she had died of natural causes) said that he wasn’t where she was, but rather,somewhere very unpleasant.
    In case these NDE’s do indeed contain truths, my advice, especially to those who attempt suicide out of curiosity is, don’t risk it! You may end up somewhere you really don’t want to be.
    If you are suicidal, please seek help.

  31. joshua Says:

    “my advice, especially to those who attempt suicide out of curiosity is, don’t risk it! You may end up somewhere you really don’t want to be.”

    yet we will die anyway, so logically we will end up in this place regardless

  32. jake Says:

    great points listed here, thanks gavin

    Ive always wondered who see’s more of life’s truth – the person in despair (possibly suicidal) or the person looking from a distance at the suicide. The people on the outside of the despairing feelings say that the person is mentally ill, selfish ect – but maybe they could be the ones seeing the deeper truth behind life, as they look where the person in the ‘normal’ state of mind dares not too. Alternatively, the ‘normal’ person is looking where the despairing person has lost the will – due to the reasons of their feelings – and so maybe this deeper truh lies in the middle of the two states of mind, if that place is possible to reach.
    just something thats been on my mind

  33. spectator Says:

    this was an amazingly lucky find via google. im glad i stumbled across this. after reviewing some of the views on suicide, for and against, i feel somewhat more relieved and at ease with myself.

    suicide has far too many aspects and perspectives to consider, but the one thing i believe is that selfishness cannot be deteremined one-sidedly, and sometimes not at all. i, myself, have not conceded to my own suicidal thoughts and “desires” because i know, for a fact, that some will grieve, and that some will call me selfish past my death, but that is a guilt that i cannot live with.

    thanks for writing this.

  34. edward Says:

    Suicide isn’t for the weak. It takes a lot of strength to take your own life, otherwise half the people here and I wouldn’t have been able to post. Go ahead, try slitting your own throat. It’s nearly impossible.

    Also, it’s true that there are others that have suffered through ‘more’ painful experiences and lived, but not everyone is the same. Not everyone has the same threshold of pain. To compare someone who is just ‘unhappy’ to someone who has been tortured for years is absurd. Furthermore, if suicide Is in fact for the weak, then it’s a good way to flush out all the weaklings from society right?

    I myself have played with the idea of suicide for a while, maybe not as long as others but I’m getting there. I’ve really thought about a lot of the different angles. I understand both sides of the arguments, but I can’t quite be convinced that suicide is the Wrong choice. I know it is not the only choice; there are others, but who’s to say which one is more right than the other.

    For the most part, however, I agree with the arguments stated. That’s not saying that this is new for me, but instead it’s what I’ve learned through my limited years of researching. One thing I would like to add though is that future prospects of happiness may not be able to account for the pain and suffering one has to go through Now.

  35. contemplating Says:

    This was exactly what I needed to read. I feel more confident now, that if and when I choose to take my own life, I will be responsible. It’s true, depression, family problems and loneliness have taken my will to live, but so has a gift of keen insight into the nature of society, humanity, religion and the world. My awareness only compels me to take that bold move. I’d be confident if I did it, because #1 I know how to do it (jump off the bridge to the highway by my house – preferably in front of a semi ) also, #2 I honestly want to be recycled.

    I want to come back as a brand new baby, with a mother and father that love me and a normal family and happy life. I don’t believe anything anyone says about life after death. I believe it’s impossible to know for sure, and it’s all simply juvenile and irrelevant speculation. However, I am a VERY SWEET AND LOVING person and the fact that my life has been so devoid of love, understanding and social acceptance (including by my own family), well, I’m seriously thinking it’s payback time. Humanity’s ignorance could be rewarded with exactly what it deserves, a world WITHOUT me in it! Cuz life goes on and we’re all just dust in the wind anyway. I don’t care if anyone cares that I’m gone. I care that they reflect on their own life, selfishly and think, well as long as people accept me and I have money, I don’t need to reach out, I don’t need to love, I don’t need to be compassionate, kind or giving, kinda like people can be on Myspace.

    However, in the same token, being somewhat spiritual, I know that part of my depression or lack of the will to live is because of an absence of genuine, loving and caring human contact with others like me. And as this world changes and becomes manipulated by capitalism, right-wing agenda’s and religion, fear and conformity rules. Judgement dictates. Gossip, Hollywood, Al Quaida, what’s the point? Get me out of here! There is no joy in separatism. And this is what the world is.

  36. joshua Says:

    “kill myself to make everybody pay” is not the right approach, darling. make sure you really sit down and consider your reasons, suicide should be an action chosen because it is the right action, not because a sudden emotional response urges you towards it

  37. chrissy Says:

    …well i think that these people that say you will go straight to hell are just trying to srace us into religion… and they are probably the ones who need Jesus. now yes there is a heaven and hell but this should be about the people attemting or thinking about suicide not our religious beliefs. are the poeple sick? do they have a mental problem? WHAT!!!! we should be conserned about them not mocking them which most aren’t doing (except sara lol) look sure i’ve thought about suicide how hasn’t? but obviously(don’t know if the spelling’s right) i haven’t but lets look at some or the reasons for suicide: dysfunctional family, pregnant, lossing your boy-toy(oh boo-hoo cry me a river)aids(i mean your gonna die anyway right?) the list goes on and on but thanks for making this site it helps. holla

  38. chrissy Says:

    hey guys guess what… i cut my arm the other day… sorry for giving in but i was so mad and it made me feel better… help me please

  39. mengele jr. Says:

    The kind of people who condemn suicide the most are the people who were once suicidal, but were suddenly stricken with death fear and thus keep on living. When they see suicidal people, they project their own intense fear of dying upon them and become judgemental as a defense mechanism.

    It’s that simple.

  40. joshua Says:

    chrissy, i dont think that anyone here can help you, typically these issues require more than words of kindness over the internet. if you are wanting to stop, i’d suggest talking to a therapist, someone who can help you understand what drives you to these kind of actions. i know i am certainly not qualified for that.

    i imagine there are probably some questions you can ask yourself to get a fuller understanding of your situation, ie why did you start, why do you want to stop, what do you need in order to be ableto stop, and so on

    i do believe that most people have the ability within them to change themselves. life is a constant evoloution, make changes and decisions about yourself over time to become the kind of person you want to be.

    and talk to a therapist ;)

  41. Marty Says:

    I do think this is a bit stupid, your arguments are pretty weak. Suicide is just plain stupid, ask any child, children are still pure. Anyone who doesnt agree should seek medical help as to their state of mind, as anyone who disagrees with me also should. :):)
    have a good life you all, and if suicide is the best you can do, then you are as intelligent as my left shoe (therefore doing the rest of us a favour).
    Marty

  42. Matt Says:

    I feel like killing myself more now than I ever have before. I am not depressed, irrational, or selfish. I am in excellent mental and physical health. My life has been an endless string of failures, but none of them were my fault. Nobody can accuse me of not trying. My efforts were nothing short of heroic. I don’t blame anybody except for “god” if he/she/it exists. Hope is my enemy. I am very hopeful, but hope inevitably leads to heartbreak. I don’t think that life is pointless, I just think that I will never acheive the things that make life worth living.
    I kind of resent it when people want to close off the option of suicide for me. It should always be an option. Of course I would feel bad about hurting the people I left behind, but I am sure that their pain could not match the pain that I endure everyday. Saying that my only option is to continue to suffer is cruel. If there is a god he is a huge asshole with a very nasty sense of humor.

  43. Matt Says:

    What I meant when I said that I am not depressed is that their is obviously nothing physically or chemically wrong with my brain. I can delude myself into thinking that I am happy sometimes (“smile and the whole world smiles with you”, “today is the first day of the rest of your life”, etc.), but reality will eventually always come back and smack me in the face. I cannot conceive of any situation where I could actually obtain friends, a girlfriend, or a satisfying job.

  44. Marty Says:

    Matt, have a look here http://grouphug.us and remember that depression creates an illusion where the depressed doesnt recognise his/her own depression.
    and i want to give you a big hug, do not underestimate the power of hugs :)
    Marty

  45. joshua Says:

    feeling happy and getting hugs is hardly a legitimate reason to live

  46. Marty Says:

    yes, you are right joshua. do you need help deciding a method?

  47. Matt Says:

    Marty, I do appreciate the “hug”. I found this thread refreshing reading as it shows that suicidal feelings do not always come from a “diseased” mind. Life is extremely rough even at the best of times.
    On the main topic of the thread, it seems to me like suicide is one of the most ethical things you can do really. This argument has been brought up before mostly as a joke, but there is some truth to it. Most moral behaviour consists of things that one shouldn’t do rather than things that one should do. For the survival of the human race, is it absolutely essential that our population is reduced drastically. It’s going to happen one way or another. Probably within the next 20 or 30 years.

  48. joshua Says:

    hardly, marty, i have no aversion to living. it does sound like, however, you have one towards dying. i’d advise setting your emotions aside and reevaluating the subject, your point of view seems tainted by fear and pride

    “your arguments are pretty weak. Suicide is just plain stupid”
    “Anyone who doesnt agree should seek medical help as to their state of mind”
    “if suicide is the best you can do, then you are as intelligent as my left shoe”
    -marty 25May07 4:10am

    sorry, marty, it takes more than an opinion and a voice to change my mind. all the condescending comments in the world dont justify an ignorant stance

  49. chrissy Says:

    obviously marty doesn’t understand people that think about suicide… instead of saying hey you’ll be fine or suck it up try and understand put yourself in his/her shoes what’s going on in thier life to make them feel this way. And Matt there is a GOD! he is real now am i pushing religion on you no absolutely not… if you try and find him he will show up for you! you might say well he hasn’t showed up before and the reason that is is that he will not push himself on you if he comes in your life it will be because you let him in he’s always at the door knocking it is up to you to open the door or not! and GOD is a he because the bible makes reference to him as a him!! everybody deserves the chance to live is his/her fault that they were born intigitimately…whatever the word is the one that means your parents aren’t married, or that thier mom is a drugie or a dad that beats them????? NO NO AND NOOOOOOOOOOOOO SO if the child does commit suicide (in situations like that) then it is not the childs fault he/she might have pulled the trigger or whatever but it was the parents fault first!! So i think i am done here for now … OOOHHH guys i read the best books ever recently they are “trigger” and “thr3e” so read them if you want. . . toodles

  50. noname Says:

    The myth of eternal hellfire prevents me from committing suicide…not really. It is a myth. What stops me is upsetting those I know, and secondly, the mess. I want to go out in the forest and remove myself from any chance another human finding me. Much like my whole life, I would like to simply disappear. It’s sad, it could’ve gone differently. And I wish it did. Not just in my life but everything else. There is so much blood on our hands. America was founded on and is sustained by violence. Ive had my heart broken and broken hearts. The ones that pain me are the hearts Ive broken. I have so many personal issues, of which I can never reveal and speak about, that are pressing me to end all of this. I need to finish school, remove myself from everyone, dissappear for a few months (semi-stay on the radar), send a note of “Im going to Mexico” (and maybe really goto Mexico) and then transfer from this place.

    Can anyone clarify any possible information on Christ’s view of suicide? I read the Bible from time to time and have yet to find any reference.

  51. joshua Says:

    If you believe that hell is a myth, then why do you care what the bible says about suicide? If any of it is a myth, all of it is a myth.

    Even if you believed that the bible is true, and only hell is a myth, why would you then be concerned about god’s view of suicide? If there is no hell, there isn’t a punishment for sin. So even if it is a sin according to the bible, what difference does it make?

    But if its really important to you, you should understand that your place in heaven isn’t secured through your actions, but rather the grace of god. Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” This, of course, means that you get to heaven because of god’s grace, not because of a righteous life. The worse sinner you are, the more grace you receive. Suicide can’t remove that Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that *neither death nor life*, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, *will be able to separate us from the love of God that* is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    As for scriptures condemning it, “…no passage in Scripture unequivocally condemns suicide” http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/#2.2

    As a final thought, was it not god himself who granted Samson the strength to bring down the temple pillars, killing himself and the phillistines? Judges 16:28-30 “Then Samson prayed to the LORD, “O Sovereign LORD, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes.” Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!” Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.”

  52. noname Says:

    Thanx, that helps. The myth I was speaking about was the one of Saint Augustine I believe, who said that suicide was a sin against God, warranting a one-way ticket to hell. Again, thank you for your feedback. I am upbeat. I am a happy person. I ride my single-speed mountain bike everywhere while rocking out to my mp3 player (like “Welcome to Planet Motherfucker” and such, it is motivating). Everyone thinks I am as humorous as I am hyper-active. And yet, no one knows how close I am. What freaks me out is the current administration of US Corp. In May 2008 we will have national ID cards. And Bush just signed an executive order eliminating dissent concerning the Iraq War ( http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html ). This world is pissing me off. Ive gotten off topic now, sort of, or Im just rambling. Bascially, if the shit hits the fan (in other words: sometime soon) I may have to expediate this whole process. I do believe in Christ, and by the grace of God I hope he/she/it has steward of my soul.

  53. Sheryl Says:

    Umm, let’s see. I took seven pain pills and like fourty aspirin and a lot of sleeping pills and I’m drinking, but I don’t think it’s enough to kill me and now I just don’t know what to do. I have no more medicine, but I still have alcohol. I guess I’ll just get really wasted and laugh it off tomorrow.

  54. Lauren Q. Says:

    Oh man…I definately plan to kill myself. Glad I found others with the same/similar goals.

    My reasons sum up in these three words:

    1.Absurdism
    2.Pessimism
    3.Misanthropy

    Life for me pretty much from the beginning. Plus, I’ve already been dead for billions of years, to borrow from Mark Twain, so why live any longer? I also believe that the Bible says that all humans are bad and deserve to die. I can’t think of a better excuse for suicide.

  55. Lauren Says:

    Oh man…I definately want to kill myself. The reason come down to three words: absurdism, misanthropy, and pessimism.

  56. Lauren Says:

    My politics are libertarian, so I would definately support the option of suicide. Life from day one sucked for me and it looks very attractive. I really don’t want to continue living in a world/reality where nothing is ever fair for any individual. Plus the doctrine of absurdism pushes the desire for suicide even further.

  57. Sal Says:

    I am 47 and I am tired. My job is deadend, my kids are grown and seem to be doing okay now. I’ve managed to save several thousand dollars, but not enough to retire on or even live on and go back to school. I’ve never been married. I am disillusioned, lonely (I lost my only three friends in the last two years) and find myself isolated more and more every day and struggling to get by in the land of plenty. I can’t afford nice clothing, hair cuts, or even new shoes without going into debt. I am ashamed of my appearance. I can’t afford a therapist, I can’t even afford a dentist. I can’t afford to go to the movies. I have 2 lovers that are both married to someone else, so never take me out and i feel despair that nobody will ever find me worthy enough to want to make a life with me. I had my children when I was a teenager. I worked hard and they are all educated, bright and beautiful and none of them are interested in having children of their own. I love them and feel ashamed that I wasn’t the best mom, that I shook my oldest daughter and slapped her when she was only 5 months old and I couldn’t stop her crying, or blew up at my son several nights in a row, screaming and slamming the doors, because he wouldn’t do his homeowrk and his teacher was giving me a hard time about it, and I feel so tired and sad that I just want to go to sleep now. I feel that my life has been burdened by obligation and now that it is only to myself I cannot even take care of myself anymore. I had to change jobs a few years ago and I feel like my skills are no good anymore and always wanted to travel but don’t want to spend money that I should leave for my children’s inheritance. I want a good simple way to die now, that will look like an accident so the insurance pays out for my children and so they are not hurt, and so I can finally rest. This has come over my suddenly in the last four days. I have always tried to be upbeat, positive and energetic, but I cannot seem to lift this shroud and in fact it seems to be getting tighter and darker. I’ve accomplished enough now. I don’t feel I have any use left in me

  58. Sal Says:

    OK sorry maybe i just need to sleep for a few days straight and work through my grief and find a new purpose to my existence. Thanks for letting me vent

  59. noname Says:

    ok, so I did some research. I discovered a no-frills and painless way to end one’s life. First, let me just say the world is crazy. Im not necessarily wanting to kill myself. Im just making a choice on how to die. I will die. Old age, I dont think so. Im in my 30s. So, what is the method? Id very much like to share but I dont know if it appropriate here. Its cheap and painless. There are now factors stopping me from doing this. Id very much like to depart, but a big part of me says its premature. And then theres a creeping feeling that I may not have the opportunity once all this…all the craziness in the world is allowed to run its course. It is a 50+ dollar item. Ive been going crazy with trying to manage school and reading the news about what is on the horizon. Simply put, I want to fade, to go to sleep. I will miss many. I will miss life. For I do love it so. I really do. But I think its time for me to check out. St Augustine was smoking something. Taking one’s life when appropriate can be beautiful. Its that moment. It can be beautiful.

  60. hiutopor Says:

    Hi all!

    Very interesting information! Thanks!

    Bye

  61. Lizzie Says:

    Christopher Hitchens got it right when he said, “Humans are only partly rational”. If Western society believes that humans are fallen and deserve to die, then why in the world is suicide illegal? That sounds like the logic of a deeply mentally ill person. A Christian of course would rebutt with the “God gave humans life and to commit suicide is a grave sin!” type of crap. Therefore, I conclude with that explanation that God and the Bible authors are schitzophrenics. Of course the only reason so many people want to stay alive is because of biological programming by Nature. To Nature, humans are nothing more than playthings much like a animator with his/her cartoon or movie. :-)

  62. noname Says:

    Lizzie, I think you missed it. The point of this page and Gavin’s research (as I have checked myself) is that there is not one line in the Bible condemning suicide. St Augustine was the one who perpetrated this whole hellfire concept, and what an asshole he was for stressing everyone out. (Yes, I just called a Saint and asshole.) I wish I could remember the first time I heard this fallacy, I was pretty young. The point is, we must undo all this negative thinking about suicide because it is unfounded.

  63. Lizzie Says:

    noname,

    My first post attacked the Christian defense against suicide. Gavin also attacked other defenses against suicide that were not based on religion.

  64. joshua Says:

    To noname in post #59

    30 seems pretty young to me, I currently plan to wait until I’m 65. Sometimes I think about shortening it so it comes sooner (sometimes think “today is the day” :P ) but I started going back to school, and have been realizing that there are all these things I want to learn before I die, so if I’m healthy at 65 I might push it back a bit. But we’ll see, its only a tentative plan anyway.

  65. noname Says:

    Ok, something happened this week that changed my entire perspective. This kid I know, 16 years of age, killed himself because his girlfriend broke up with him. He hung himself from a tree in his backyard. By the time they got to him he was hanging there for 45 minutes. At the hospital they learned his brain was 90% dead, so they took him off life-support the next day. I can only imagine his neck didnt break and he struggled for some time. Sad. I am still trying to make sense of this senseless act…

  66. joshua Says:

    Hanging is *not* the way to go. Too much rope and your head pops off, too little rope and you suffocate. Anyway, death is a part of life, I wouldn’t obsess too much about someone dying young as opposed to old. At 16 your head is probably not on straight (mine surely wasn’t) and after breaking up with someone, your under a lot of stress, not the best time to make major life decisions. But, he apparently succeeded in his goal, which implies that he was dedicated enough to get it done, and if someone is dedicated enough to succeed, then they probably wanted it enough to justify it, so I probably shouldn’t discount his decision.

  67. noname Says:

    joshua, i appreciate your kind words, however I must disagree. his decision was in haste. a break up is no reason. and I think he realized that while he struggled. and struggled he did. I think of him on the rope, realizing the pain and not being able to make it stop, and wanting down…

  68. noname Says:

    All I wanted from this site was the answer to the following question – If a single parent is so selfish as to take her /his own life (as they can’t cope with life’s strains – which are many) then what happens to their adorable children?

  69. joshua Says:

    I would expect the children go to a relative if the relative is willing to take them, and if not they go into the system, meaning foster care and such. White Oleander is a movie that follows a girl through foster care, I recommend it, should give you an idea at least of what types of situations the children might find themselves in, plus the movie itself is good.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Oleander_(2002_film)

  70. Lizzie Says:

    Life is stupid. Absurd. Albert Camus is boss.

  71. kathy Says:

    i really want to end it. the only reason i dont is i know how bad it would effect my children. we are very close. but i just cant take this hell anymore. they say you go to hell if you kill yourself, but how much worse can hell be than what my life is. i only breathe for the sake of my children. i just wish i could find a way to get out of my hell without them knowing i took my own life. they are all i have and i am all they have. but to be this miserable has got to stop for me. i want them to always be proud of their mom like they are now. they say i am such a good and caring and loving person. but they dont know half of the hard knocks i have had to deal with as far back as i can remember, my life has been shit. the only good thing in my life is them. they love and respect so, and i dont want to loose that.

  72. Joshua Says:

    There’s always alcohol ^_^

    Just kidding (kinda,) but if you want to stay around for your family, then consider visiting a doctor, depression is a documented disease, insurance will most likely cover it, and the doctor may be able to offer you medication to sooth the despair. If you are discreet, your children do not even need to know.

  73. the original noname Says:

    Having kids is huge. Can you wait until they are 18? I personally would want my mother to die before I offed myself. Even though my mother these days is rigid and mean and we’ve drifted apart, I cannot follow through. I’m 35 so it doesn’t matter, I guess. Life has been disappointing. I’m a relatively attractive male I can’t get a date. I’m a school teacher and I work my arse off. If my kids (meaning, all 90 of them) were to find out I killed myself, I’d want to kill myself. The point is, life is painful, but our kids are everything. I think about them all the time. And although my life sucks relationship wise, they keep me going. I laugh everyday. Without them, I would have no reason.

  74. Lizzie Says:

    Life is very brief so for me that makes it very stupid and absurd. I want to just get out of what I call it “Nature’s Really, Really, Sick Joke.”

  75. the original noname Says:

    Well, I really appreciate this forum or page or whatever. It is nice to talk about this subject and not be deemed a pariah. I am near the end. However, I get on my bike in beautiful DENVER (especially beautiful these days) and thank creation, I do. But there is so much about my life I’d rather just aviod. I suffer from body dysmorphic disorder. There is no way I would go to the beach. And I am a man. Men are supposed to walk around without their shirts off. My whole life, I have not. Paranoid. Scared. It is just recently I discovered the name for my disorder. It has run my whole life. There is no cure, because my perceptions are legit. So, to live this life fully-clothed, in fear, is truly exhausting. Besides that, my family has is ridiculous. My mom talks shit and thinks I’m an alcoholic for enjoying beer. And I am sick of it. I am tired of explaining myself to them. I will end it all soon. How soon, I have no idea. I just know that what is going on in the world….

    So, Lizzie, I’m with you on your sentiment. I want to transfer beyond too. Tis been too long: me on this planet.

  76. Ron Says:

    I sympathise with the suffering of many of you, as it has been a great part of my life too. But
    the great majority of the feelings that make you feel so low are only TEMPORARY. You CAN get over them and look back on them, remember that.I know this from my own experience and those close to me.

    For example, my wife made an attempt on her life over an incident where she worked. But with my love and encouragement,she is now fully recovered. Likewise, a friend of hers attempted suicide over her college results.Luckily, she was saved and now has a family and decent life.

    Think of the other people whom suicide impacts upon also. A friend of mine killed himself at age 28. His mother never recovered from the grief and died prematurely. He threw me into a guilt trip also.

    Whatever your feelings and self-image,(that includes all the messages left on this site as far as I can see) there is always help available somewhere: talk to your doctor, friends, family. Read books and log on websites that will offer support for your recovery. Look for mental health charities, join or start a support group in your area. If you’re really low, call the Samaritans. Oh, and don’t read any more pro-suicide articles.

  77. the original no name Says:

    Ron, you words are encouraging, but you must realize that there is nothing temporary about how I feel. Imagine, for as long as you can remember, being afraid of something. For me it is being exposed. To take my shirt off in public. There is nothing temporary about it. I have and will forever need to cover my body. I will never enjoy or feel the full freedom of a summer day. I appreciate you trying to turn the tables here, but it is too late for me, for it has been too long. I want to be done with this all. I am scared of the unknown. And I don’t want to hurt those that marginally care about me. What to do…

  78. the original no name Says:

    I apologize for all my grammar flubs, subtle yes, but nonetheless annoying. No edit function! (Maybe I’m spending too much time here.) Anways, what irks me is normal people. Not in a “I hate you” way, but in way that other people are so far removed from my disability. Albeit a “phantom” disorder of the mind, yes I have that, but I also have evidence; I am living proof that I am a freak. So it’s not that I relish in the fact that my perceptions are correct, I’d much rather have the mental disorder without the physical. Recently I just found out about my condition has a name and the suicide rate is high. (And I take that back when i said my whole life. Teenage to adult life, yes.) Focus on the now maybe, that would be great, if I could do such a thing. But I can’t. I am deprived of the single thing that…. So, call me a wambulance or whatever. The point is…the Hemingway-out is not so bad. Sure, people will be sad, but so have I this entire time-span. People should be happy that I was as happy as I was. Like it’s past tense or something. I’m not dead yet. And saying it that way takes the romance out of it. And a romance it is. Tis a mystery to me. And I wish I had a clear understanding of what’s next.

    Because I’d like to leave.

  79. Josh Says:

    Ron says: “But the great majority of the feelings that make you feel so low are only TEMPORARY. You CAN get over them and look back on them, remember that.I know this from my own experience and those close to me.”

    Josh says: Why gamble with misery? Death is inevitable, why should a person extend misery just to run from death a little longer?

    Ron says: “A friend of mine killed himself at age 28. His mother never recovered from the grief and died prematurely. He threw me into a guilt trip also.”

    Josh says: Those reactions were your own choices. If you cannot experience relationships without grief and guilt, than perhaps it would be wise to distance yourself from people, because again, all people die. I never understand why some people think that “loved ones” should suffer life-ending misery just so that they don’t have to deal with it. I’d even take that a step further and say it is the opposite of love, I see it as the pinnacle of selfishness.

    TONN says: “I wish I had a clear understanding of what’s next. Because I’d like to leave.”

    Josh says: There is nothing next, it will be as it was before you were born: you simply won’t exist. If anyone tells you otherwise, demand evidence to support their view. And reject anecdotal nonsense, “my friend saw a light at the end of the tunnel” and other dreamt stories. There is no evidence of anything beyond our lives, and most people only think there is because they are scared of death and it alleviates that fear. (plus it’s a meme, it has survived because it’s an idea whose hosts were more capable of survival by believing it, and thus it was propogated until you get to today, where most people never even think to question it)

  80. Lizzie Says:

    When one thinks about it, sadness is a very useless emotion. Nothing lasts forever, everything dies. All organisms have been dead for billions of years, so what is the big deal?

  81. thr original noname Says:

    I too see grief as selfishness. Although the grief/depression I experience in everyday life is my own, and I deal with it appropriately. As far as nothing happening after you die, there is no evidence that nothing happens. Something happens. Energy transfers. It goes somewhere. It’s simple physics.

    I’ve been thinking what the big deal is. Our society guilt-trips those who take their lives. Why? Why is it so bad? Let’s say you just feel you have lived enough. Why not? My depression is real. My phobia is debilitating. If only my mom would die so I wouldn’t have to put her through the “misery”.

    Being sad is worthless. I try not to do it. I’d like to go out with a smile.

  82. Ron Says:

    ‘Why gamble with misery’ asks Josh

    BECAUSE PEOPLE USUALLY GET BETTER! is the answer.

    My wife and her friend are living proof of this (see Reply no. 76) At the time of their suicide attempts they were rock bottom obviously. Now they have both recovered fully and see the problems they had as exaggerated.

    I too am proof. I have suffered several bouts of depression. And while they were horrible at the time, I am 55 now and can review my problems at that time in better perspective.

    Are you saying we all should have ended our lives by now?

    Stories abound of those at rock bottom recovering and turning their lives around. Like the junkie who thought of suicide, was talked out of it by psychic Mia Dolan, and now counsels other addicts.

    As Vernon Coleman, MD writes:

    ‘Most episodes of depression will clear up when the environmental difficulties, disordered interpersonal relationship, or internal emotional conflict which caused the depression have been solved or forgotten.’ (STRESS CONTROL p 153)

    Naturally, if you have prolonged depression always seek medical advice / counselling

    As to my friend (acquaintance rather than close friend), should his family really have ‘distanced themselves emotionally’ also? That’s very unrealistic indeed. Loved ones inevitably feel the pain, loss, shock and grief that a suicide causes, just as his family suffered.

    As to the question of whether there is an afterlife. I don’t know, and neither does anyone else. Yes, I have discovered wide discrepancies in the Near Death Experiences (NDE’s) of attempted suicides also, since looking more deeply into them.

    And, similarly, among psychics there is wide variation over what happens to suicides, some positive ( e g Rita Rogers, David Thompson), others negative (e g Mia Dolan, Mary T Browne). These negative assertions say the suicide may have to reincarnate to face the life lessons they have tried to escape from, or being trapped between worlds until it was their proper time to die. Or even both these sets of circumstances. More objectively, perhaps, ghosts are reported by otherwise rational people and some of these are earthbound spirits (by no means all suicides) who have to be helped to move on by a medium.

    Now, none or only one of these conditions may be the truth, whether positive or negative. The interested reader will have to research themselves and make his/her own mind up.

    But my advice is, DON’T TAKE THE RISK OF KILLING YOURSELF

    Say to yourself: MOST PEOPLE GET BETTER – SO WILL I!

    Lastly, I would say to ‘The Original No-Name’: A girl (quite a pretty one) in a Depression self-help group I once attended had Body Dysmorphic Disorder- it isn’t that new a thing. Last time I saw her she was much better. You CAN overcome it!

  83. Ron Says:

    I wish to clarify the points I made in Reply 82,regarding any possible afterlife, and the fate of suicides. My point was that:

    (1)Near Death Experiences (NDE’s), including those of suicide attempts, produce greatly differing descriptions of the suicide survivor’s experience. Some are positive in content, while others are negative.

    (2) Likewise, psychics, via their “guides” relay widely differing descriptions of the successful suicide’s afterlife experiences. Again, some of these are positive, while others are negative.

    My point is that all these phenomena are therefore questionable, contradictory even, and therefore cannot be relied upon. Since we do not know which version, if any, to trust as “truth”. I repeat my advice to err on the side of caution if you are considering suicide hoping for something better hereafter.

    In short, do NOT take the risk.

  84. the original noname Says:

    George Eastman, who committed suicide: “To my friends: My work is done. Why wait?” He was a successful inventor, the father of Kodak film.

    I’m starting to think that the big deal is in our minds. Some people reach an end and are done. We all make it to the afterlife someway. Suicide is a state of mind, much like that quote. No concerns, no worries.

  85. Lizzie Says:

    It would be a very good idea for me to suicide myself because sometime in the middle or next century all the men collectively of this planet will invent artifical wombs and kill off women. The mainstream media right now says the opposite but from what I read in certain places around the internet they are dead wrong.

  86. the original noname Says:

    Mmm…let me be the first to off myself if there are no more women. Life definitely not worth living then….

  87. the original noname Says:

    Here is a blurb from another website, found here http://www.soulproof.com/Suicide/suicide2.html

    I dont know about all the puppies and such…

    “Fortunately, much collective evidence shows that even those who take their own lives are loved and understood by God and the heavenly host. There’s no need for Divine forgiveness because Creator doesn’t condemn anyone for being in such misery and taking such a drastic action.

    The eternal Presence, the Ground of All Being IS limitless love without end. How can a power like that react in any other way except complete compassion and support?

    Reports from authenticated psychics and spiritual regressions say that those who commit suicide are taken to a special area of healing. They are so raw and broken that they aren’t ready for interactions with others yet. Instead, they are in a realm where bunnies, puppies, kittens, fawns, and angels comfort and tend to them constantly.

    They are given space when needed and time to heal. They are immersed in healing showers and loving energy until they are ready to look at their actions. They receive counseling, group work, and personal growth. When they’re ready, they begin to reenter the stream of life.

    Much later in Earth years, they can decide to try another physical incarnation so they can achieve their original goals for coming to this planet.

    Some critics say that suicide is an unforgivable sin, a slap in the face to Creator. I say that those critics haven’t glimpsed the Light and its infinite wisdom and love. They are listening to rote, archaic messages of fear, not their own hearts.”

  88. Ron Says:

    As I stated above, in replies 82 and 83, psychics vary greatly in what they report about what happens to suicides. Some like the previous reply, are sympathetic, while others are very unsympathetic. Again, to repeat we just cannot know which view is correct

  89. Many Says:

    There are people who exist in the most horrible conditions imaginable, their bodies tightly compacted, stiff as a board unable to move, they shit themselves daily, as they waste away in hospitals in 3rd world countries and the like, you telling me that they should live like that? Unwise.

    Then there are mental states of inefficiency, imagine knowing that no matter what, you will never have anything, because of the nature in which your brain functions. And that the best things in life, aka sex, will never be your’s. And all the while you think of people having lustful orgies, and passions, and absolute fulfillment.

    I point my finger at all of you people, and I mock you for your stupidity and selfishness. You are all fools, those of you who think that someone shouldn’t be able to kill themselves. It is you who are selfish, shame on you, all of you. You aren’t worthy of an opinion.

  90. the original noname Says:

    Brutal assessment, Many, yet true. Life is unbearable for many of us. I, personally, am at the end of this venture. The biggest issue I have to contend with is my mother. Do I wait for her to die? Because if I off myself, she will be the one to die from misery. Tis not fair. I want the romance of a peaceful exit. This complication of mom freaking out puts a snag in that plan. I am 36 and unable to find the meaning in proceeding with this…. I have already a plan, 2/3 complete. The source that created all of us will not condemn me for suffering from depression, a condition that derived from the physical and not the cerebral. I am a disappointment. To myself and everyone else. I just finished a degree program and cant find a job. The clock is ticking, and every second is painful for me. Although I do still find joy and laughter, there are aspects of life that are terrifying for me. Simple things, specific things, I would never expose myself…. God forgive me for being so sad.

  91. Many Says:

    This is many again. I have had a change of heart……..DO NOT KILL YOURSELF.

    youtube this video

    I SAW JESUS CHRIST WITH MY OWN EYES ! It’s a life saver, God bless you all.

  92. the original noname Says:

    The video really doesn’t help me. My pain is severe, my depression consumes my day. I have been without for so long. A brief glimpse, maybe, but now alone, forever. I just got another call from a girl who said she did not wish to see me anymore. Am to think that my see-saw luck with women in the past 10 years is going to change? No one loves me. I am a physically ugly person. I even had a migraine today that put me down, which come every 3 months or so now. Things get better from here on out? Pessimism is not something I exactly chose for myself, I was born with the body that is detestable. And it still haunts me to this day. I want a peaceful exit, but nembutal is hard to come by.

  93. Ron Says:

    Firstly, I want to say to ‘the original no-name’, you are NOT a no-name, a nobody. You are a somebody and you are as important as anyone else.
    I wondered if you had tried hypnotherapy, or CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, which I had) as these can be effective, particularly with self-image problems like yours. The thing is, though, you have to get yourself to a practitioner or group, It is no use just assuming you ARE physically abnormal. In any case, you are likely to be exaggerating any defect in your mind, which is why Body Dismorphic Disorder is classed as a psychological illness.
    This was the case with the girl I mentioned who had BDD. She saw herself as ugly when, actually, she was perfectly OK to look at. She got better, so can you. Likewise, anorexics see themselves as obese when, to anyone else they look like they’ve come from a famine zone.
    In any case, even if you do have a problem, is that any reason to kill yourself? You see crippled and handicapped people every day. Half the population of America is overweight, some chronically, but people don’t kill themselves. I met a guy with 60% burns on his back after a bonfire accident. But it didn’t stop him taking his shirt of that hot summer.
    Remember, also, that America is a macho society which encourages masculinity and aggression. Lots of women put kindness and sensitivity above machismo, and most rate a sense of humor above a guy’s looks.
    In the meantime, try some deep relaxation exercise or take up yoga. There also alternative medicines like acupuncture to consider.
    Hope this helps.

    As to many of the others who have left replies, I see lots of negativity rather than justification for such a drastic act as suicide, in reasons like ‘Because the world is unfair’, ‘to join a partner in death’, ‘to make everyone pay’, ‘because women will be replaced by artificial wombs’ (it hasn’t even happened yet).
    Why not stay alive then and try to make the world better. Get some feminism, or radical politics. People stopped the Vietnam war through positive action. Use Sal as an example. In reply 57, she is feeling down. But by reply 58 she seems much better. Re-read my own replies nos 76 & 82 with the quote by Dr Vernon Coleman. Most of these bad feelings WILL pass and you’ll get over them. Trust me, I’ve been there too.

  94. Ron Says:

    I want to re-phrase the first sentence of the last paragraph in my previous reply (no 93), to now read as follows:

    As to many of the replies that have been left, the writers obviously believe that the reasons they give provide justification for contemplating suicide- the most drastic of actions. Thus, they write reasons like, ‘because the world is unfair’, ‘to join a partner in death,’ to make everyone pay,”to see what death is like’, ‘because women will be replaced by artificial wombs’, etc.”
    Not only do I think such views are highly negative, they are also, I believe, fleeting feelings which will pass.

  95. Ron Says:

    It occurred to me that this reply section has assumed that of a ‘chat room’ and a predominantly negative one at that. Therefore, I would like to see more people making constructive, positive remarks about living, rather than condoning the suicidal intentions of others.

    Now, a further thought. Maggie Helen writes: ‘there is evidence to suggest that the death of a parent during childhood sometimes contributes to depression and an increased risk of suicide in later life’.(Coping With Suicide- Sheldon Press,2002, p 66) So, if you are a parent, your kids
    may well suffer from your action too.

    Also, just to clarify, while you are quite right to regard the world as unfair and prejudiced (it is still extremely so), it is a very negative view to think of killing yourself in response. As I said in reply 93, it is far better for you to stay alive and do what you can to improve things. The world needs lots more caring people like you!

  96. Josh Says:

    Lizzie said: When one thinks about it, sadness is a very useless emotion. Nothing lasts forever, everything dies. All organisms have been dead for billions of years, so what is the big deal?

    Josh says: Couldn’t have said it better, no need to be sad.

    Ron said: BECAUSE PEOPLE USUALLY GET BETTER! (about why you should gamble with misery)

    Josh says: Much misery is chronic. Most people know whether theirs is.

    Ron said: As to the question of whether there is an afterlife.

    Josh says: Of course there isn’t an afterlife, this is just wishful thinking from those who fear death.

    Ron said: DON’T TAKE THE RISK OF KILLING YOURSELF

    Josh says: It’s not a risk, you _will_ die whether you suicide or not.

    Lizzie said: It would be a very good idea for me to suicide myself because sometime in the middle or next century all the men collectively of this planet will invent artifical wombs and kill off women.

    Josh says: Quite cute ^_^

    noname said: This complication of mom freaking out puts a snag in that plan.

    Josh says: Her feelings are her own, you are not responsible for her thoughts. If she loves you, she won’t want you to suffer.

    Ron says: Why not stay alive then and try to make the world better.

    Josh says: Each person gets to choose for themselves what they think is best. The best reason you’ve provided why one should not suicide is because there might be an afterlife, and it might be bad. But even if this were the case, death is inevitable.

    Ron says: the writers obviously believe that the reasons they give provide justification for contemplating suicide-

    Josh says: They are not obligated to justify it to you or anyone else. It is a _personal_ decision.

  97. Beckoned barnacle Says:

    Don’t do it folks, hell is not worth it, the demons of this world are using the suicide chip to kill a lot of people, who they know would be a threat to them if they served God. Don’t do it ok, not worth it at all. And there is an after life, I know that for sure……I’ve seen glimpses of spirits when I tried to get involved in the “hidden” or occult.

    If you give your life to the Lord he will give you a peace about you, and help pave the way for your life in a positive direction ok.

    That means get rid of the porno, all it does is drain you, and give the spirits a sort of hold on your life, also stop the “pre-marital sex”, and the drugs, and alchohol. ALl these things are what give these evil spirits power over your life.

    You’ll find out, that if you stop these things, you won’t be as suicidal, but most importantly is bringing Jesus into your life ok, and also pray that God bring you to a church that preaches the truth, and not lies and corrupted testimonies

  98. theoriginalnoname Says:

    Alright, so, thank you for all your kind words, but it is not in my head and it will not get better. I am removed from a large portion of life. I live in hiding. There are so many activities that I must avoid. It has been beyond painful. In another life…I wish I could not ever worry. To have that confidence… I am a freak. And no one will miss me when I am gone.

    God forgives. If he didnt understand pain and suffering there wouldnt be any. With the Georgian/Russian conflict happening right now, it may not matter. A regional war may spark a nuclear war. Whcih we will all then be heading for the mountains. And those that run out of survival provisions, will most likely suicide. No one will care then, either. God is my bro, he knows how hard I tired and how much I have loved/lusted. He/she/it will understand. I am sick.

  99. the original noname Says:

    The gift of choice is the best, because no one can say you did it wrong.

  100. Lizzie Says:

    Josh,

    I do not kid about men exterminating women off the planet in the next 30+ years. Women have been parasites from men since the very beginning, and still want to be even in this age of “equality”. They collectively have no interest in politics, math, or science. They do not want to do the hard jobs men must do. What use will they be? Sex? I think life is real life without it. Putting a dick in a cunt is not a good image or the best sensation man could have. Go further than that brother.

  101. Josh Says:

    Okay, Lizzie :D

    I don’t think this will happen, though, I think the world will become a better place. If this is your motive, consider waiting a bit longer and reassessing trends.

    We may not be equal yet, but I think we are getting closer all the time.

  102. theoriginalnoname Says:

    So, I got what I need.

    Watching the world churn, not a pretty sight. I am hoping my mum dies first, because I cannot wait any longer. To think that this is not apart of God’s plan is silly. I did my best. I long for so much, so much that I cannot have. So much beauty that can and never will be mine. It hurts my soul to know these forces that are against me. I hope you all here understand. A big help you have been. But I tend to think that I will be tended to by God, who knows and shares my constant pain. I am not dead yet, but perhaps soon.

    Thanks.

  103. Josh Says:

    You seem to have come to terms with yourself, so good luck with it.

  104. orenteesowall Says:

    Good luck with the site Be nice to my modest ranger A joke for you! How do you circumcise a whale? Send down fore-skin divers.

  105. Ron Says:

    A couple of things occured to me with regard to what Josh said above about “dreamt stories” and memes. I presume he is here referring to near death experiences (NDE’s). What I want to say about this is that, okay, these experiences may yet turn out to be part of the makeup of the brain,
    i e unreal in the objective sense as he believes. However, they are still subjectively real for the person experiencing them.
    Now, when someone attempts suicide, they may be unfortunate enough to have a negative or “hellish” NDE. Thus, in one example, a young girl reportedly felt herself being dragged down to hell by demons; a man tries to follow his wife into the afterlife and ends up instead, “in an awful place” where he believes he will remain for a long time.
    The point I am making is that when you attempt suicide you could be risking have one of these experiences if only as a “bad trip” like LSD. However, no one would want to induce such a horrible experience by their own actions?
    That was the first point. The other is this: some people who attempt suicide bodge it and end up with brain damage, crippled, or with damage to their internal organs. They or their families would be then left with the medical bills / loss of employment, life quality, etc. Again, it must be realized that attempting suicide is a high risk business.
    So, please, do try to think on these points before you consider taking your life. Try instead to get all the medical help you can to overcome your problem(s).

  106. Josh Says:

    Hello, Ron.
    I do mostly like your points, though I don’t completely agree with them. Allow me to explain why.

    For the first point you made was that people are risking bad experiences. This is true, but I think that they are weighing 20-60 years of undesirable life against a few minutes of undesirable experience. I don’t think that people who kill themselves take it lightly, I am fairly confident they have weighed it out and decided it is the best decision for them.

    The second point, of botched suicides, is rather unfortunate, and this is one of the reasons I think euthanasia should be legalized. People should not be forced to do these things themselves, once they have made the decision, they should be able to get medical help to ensure it gets done correctly.

    I do think that a responsible person can find ways to suicide with very low chance of failure, or which will at least not destroy their bodies and minds if they do fail. However, it is unfortunate that this responsibility is placed on them.

    As for getting medical help, I think the bills of a therapist (I assume this is the medical help you refer to) would likely cost more than the bills associated with a failed suicide. I further have almost no respect for therapists, I think philosophy may be the only way out of chronic, life-long depression, at the very least, it is the only thing that has helped me. I am actually a rather positive individual now ^_^ Not at all who I was 3 years ago in the first response to this article. This is due to philosophy, I do not think therapy could have accomplished what I have on my own. Of course, it was a very rocky ride.

  107. Ron Says:

    I’ve re-read what I said in Reply 05 and can see that it could be twisted for someone to say,
    “Yeh, well I’d better get this suicide right first time and get past the possibility of this hellish Near-Death Experience (NDE) trip and/or of waking up in a maimed body”.
    I did not mean this at all. I stand by what I said in the last paragraph, i e that I do not condone suicide, and for the same reasons I expressed previously, in Replies nos 76, 82,83 and 88,for example.
    You will see there that I question the reliabilty of any given psychic phenomena. For example, some recussitated suicides report a positive-even pleasant- NDE, while others undergo the hellish ones cited in Reply 05. (I conceded to the “meme” idea here because the situation seemed so utterly unjust otherwise).
    Similarly,some psychics report much sympathy after death for those who do manage to kill themselves, while others have a dim view (though I do not know of any who mention Hell as such.)
    Therein lies the problem: we’ll never know what, if indeed anything, lies beyond until we die,- the reports are so muddled and contradictory.
    So,mainly because of this situation I still say, don’t risk killing yourself. Also, that depressing situations can and do get better.
    I would just add to Josh’s point that a suicide attempt should not endanger others’ lives either, such as jumping from high buildings or crashing a car might.

  108. Ron Says:

    I just wanted to add a little to my previous reply as to how ‘strength in adversity’ can be found from negative situations or assertions.
    For example, psychic Mia Dolan dissuaded a suicidal drug addict by telling him that he would have to come back and complete the life lessons if he did so. She writes that, not only did the guy recover but he turned his life around by counselling other drug addicts.
    Regardless of whether you or I accept Dolan’s views, the lesson had a positive result, namely that resisting the suicidal impulse can lead to happiness in the long run. I have already mentioned my own wife and her friend in Reply 76, whereby they have survived suicide and gone on to lead satisfying lives.
    Dolan was referring, of course, to reincarnation and obviously she is one of those psychics I spoke of previously who takes a dim view of suicide. This is why I warned against taking the claims of psychics in isolation, as T.O.N.N. does in Reply 87, with its rosier view of things. You get so many conflicting claims.
    Near Death Experiences (NDE’s) are, naturally, more subjective and some people take them purely at face value, i e, real visions as opposed to “memes” (“memes” are still just a theory after all). But why then the vast discrepancies between the experiences of suicides? We could say that the frightening NDE’s are the universe’s way of saying “No! Stop!”-albeit in the most heavy-handed way! But what message does that leave those who tried to take their lives yet had the alternative, positive, experiences? Again it is all so confusing.
    This is the problem throughout, no one can say categorically there is no afterlife and no one can say what happens if there is, suicides included. Neither psychics nor NDE’s cannot tell us with any consistency, which is another reason I say, try to resist suicide.
    Just to pick up on Josh’s point about the hellish experience lasting “only a few minutes”: there is the phenomenon of time distortion, whereby a minute can seem a lot longer, as any LSD user knows.

  109. Ron Says:

    First, just to amend the anecdote with Mia Dolan,- the guy she helped was actually a drug-dealer, and shows that even a bad life can be turned around.

    Next, I would just add to what I said previously about how suicides should not endanger others: jumping from high buildings and throwing yourself in front of moving vehicles,- i e cars, lorries, buses, trains,- would come under this category.

    But, as ever, I don’t want the reader thinking about suicide at all. Quite the reverse, I want to share with you some very practical advice on the subject of CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy)as a way of tackling depression.

    There is an excellent book called “Mind Over Mood”, by Dennis Greenberger and Christine A Padesky (Guildford Press)which is very useful. You can get it on the internet, or you might be able to borrow it /order it from your local library. The authors illustrate that lots of depression, guilt, etc, stems from errors in thinking and that these can be corrected. In particular, there are the ‘automatic thoughts’ and the ‘core belief’ that make people see themselves as ‘bad’, ‘worthless’ etc, that can be challenged.

    They cite one particular case, Marissa, who had blamed herself for being sexually assaulted by her dad when she was 6 through 13. The authors show that, she was able to challenge her ‘core belief’, i e that she was ‘bad’ and ‘unloveable’ by “allowing it to happen” (which of course she didn’t). She had made two suicide attempts because of this wrong perception of herself.
    However, by using CBT methods to break up chunks of responsibility, she was able to re-assign blame to where it really belonged: her dad, primarily, but also his dad for assaulting him, her mom for not protecting her, etc. In time, she was able to reappraise her own ‘blame’ from 100 per cent to 0
    per cent, her life has improved greatly and she has made no further attempts on her life.
    Even if you can’t afford therapy, this particular book is easy to read and contains tools to tackle your negative thinking for the better.

    There is also a section on deep relaxation which I have found very useful for combatting anxiety and getting to sleep. You tense the body then relax, stage by stage, e g feet, then shins, then thighs and so on up, while breathing deeply. You can get books/CDs on this too.You might check out other books in the same vein as “Mind Over Mood” also.

    Hope this helps.

  110. Ron Says:

    I must clarify what I just said in my last reply, 109. I meant to say, of course, that suicide by jumping off buildings, or by throwing yourself in front of moving vehicles, COULD/WOULD endanger other members of the public and should NOT be attempted!
    I hope you will never have cause to endanger your own life or others’ by any form of suicide.

  111. Ron Says:

    Yet another thought: some of those psychics with negative views of suicide are actually warning against certain KINDS of suicide .
    These types of suicide would comprise those enacted out of spite or revenge on those left behind, or out of a cool-headed and calculated attempt to escape reality/responsibility. It is these which may lead to spiritual repercussions for the perpetrator. I would also add to this list, suicide enacted purely out of curiosity to find out what happens after death.
    Basically, then, those reckless types of suicide which are avoidable.

  112. Ron Says:

    I wanted to add a note of caution to my last reply, no. 111.
    Always remember that psychic phenomena, etc, may yet turn out to have alternative explanations. For example, spirit communication may yet turn out to arise from within the medium’s own psyche; ‘spirits’ and ‘spirit Guides’, assuming they exist, may not turn out to be who they claim they are, etc etc.
    The truth therefore is still a great unknown, and is illustrated by mediums’ and psychics’ many varied, and often conflicting views.
    It still holds, however, that any suicide carried out ‘just for the hell of it’ is an extremely reckless thing to do.

  113. Lizzie Says:

    Noname,

    If you are still alive I would be interested in chatting with you thru instant messaging of some type. Just email me at jordanklein@excite.com

  114. wiseone Says:

    here’s the deal….i am 54 yrs old female, have seen too much dysfuntion i my life within my family and multiple divorces, etc and have witnessed my own mother who offed herself and i did not know about it until 2 yrs later b/c my brother/half sister swore an oath to her not to tell anyone in the family what she did at aged 78, my father drank himself to death at aged 53, and what else is there to say. there is something to be said about QUALITY of life -people who are depressed ok maybe have a biological brain problem sometimes AD can help sometimes they cant. in my case i have been on and off pills for so long i no longer can find something that can help me. in my case, a car crash left me with metal plates in my neck and 10 screws, so i have chronic pain daily and on pills, would any omne have the nerve to tell me i shoudnt off myself? ok idont do it b/c i gota 25 yr old kid who says he loves me, but one day he will get married and no longer need as he will cling to his wife rightfully so. so then i will be free to go. my ability to work has been taken away from the crash, my only sense of joy is wathcing old movies and vegging out in front of the tv.
    i go from one doc to another, and get no help. i live alone people would not even know if i killed myself for a month.
    i live alone had 4 divorces and no one wantsa broken down female who cant get out of bed for hte pain is unbearable most days. in this case who would blame me? i dont have to live to see my 70-80’s and feel this way? my go-d who would want that…..not me.

  115. wiseone Says:

    and if anyone thinks suffering brings meaning and purpose to life, they are wrong. it brings misery and sorrow and unhappiness and unkind people who seek to take advantage of your weakness.

    it is the old survvial of th fittest here. i am a weak person, damaged, and therefore prone to prey in this society, in the usa, what is valued is youth not old age. good looks good body not wisdom.
    who cares about this kind of shallow existence anyway?

    i am sure there will be a better place for me to go to when i get ready. this is nt exactly heaven on earth here in case anyone has noticed. ok maybe i sound negative but you have not walked in my shoes. yes maybe some suffered more than me but isnt it all relevant in the end? istn it all what one person can handle and one can not? we all have different pain thresholds and talents/strenghts.
    there are 6 billion people in the planet wasting way its resourses and also suffering.
    the old darwinian concept exsists here, survival of the fittest, bottom line. if you have any disscusion try me at amymarkell@gmail.com

  116. Not saying who I am b/c I am supposed to be dead already Says:

    So I finally move out of a horrible living situation and move into a new apartment and bam! I find a roach in my bathroom, albeit small one, but still, a roach.

    Derailed my whole “new reality” I was trying to create. Lame. Deflated.

    So a couple of weeks ago I told my mother I had a psychologist put the diagnostic manual to my brain and it turned out I have borderline personality disorder and severe depression. She told me not to take such tests. Good advice. But when I told her I was on anti-depressants at one point–a year prior, early 2009–and had to get off them because I was suicidal, she didn’t flip out. She didn’t sound too concerned, which I thought such suicide-talk would make her flip given her emotionality for such things over her lifetime…so I took this as permission. After all, she is the only person I am hanging around for at this point.

    So I hate living in this ghetto. I had tunnel vision moving here, in haste, and now I am regretting it. A 7 month lease. My skin is crawling. So I call my mom, again, a couple of days ago because she has killed many roaches in her day, and she gave me the run-down that I already knew about roaches (I was just worried and wanted to hear her solutions) and she also said “and don’t visit me, I love you but I don’t love you that much” because roaches hide in your clothes and baggage and such and we both know this. She was kidding but not really, she hates roaches as much as I do, we grew up in SoCal.

    So here I am in this roach motel and I can’t bring myself to see any sunny side to this. There is no continuum for me. If there is one roach it is an infestation. I am disgusted.

    So I got my permission.

    Permission. The despair and sadness that I foresaw/imagined that my mother might have in the event of my early passing is no longer and issue…at least that is what I am telling myself now There is no need to go on. I am having an early mid-life crisis. And to cap it all off, which has been an issue for eons, I have no one. I have no significant man or woman that is, well, significant (I am bisexual), and worse yet, no prospects in acquiring someone like that in my life. So what’s the point?

    I am just a 30 something bisexual person with borderline personality disorder, roaches in my bathroom, and a mother that is ho-hum about my existence.

    So if you know this song by Faith No More it goes something like this:

    Go on and wring my neck
    Like when a rag gets wet
    A little discipline
    For my pet genius
    My head is like lettuce
    Go on dig your thumbs in
    I cannot stop giving in
    I’m thirty-something

    Written by Mike Patton I think, called “Mid-Life Crisis”. Anyway, if you have ever played GTA San Andreas this song is featured on the radio as you drive around the city; the haunting thing is what the DJ says, concerning a mid-life crisis: at the end of the song she says “I will never hit one of those, that’s what suicide is for.” Being who I am I cannot agree more, yet I am in it and I didn’t do before all of this agony.

    I haven’t achieved. The world covets, people covet, all this material bullcrap possessions, I have never really cared until I found a roach in my bathroom. Now I am what all those who covet say I am. I live in the ghetto. And I am without anyone. Adrift. And for what? I tried to create the reality I sought, selfishness and all and even more so now so I can escape. But escape to what?

    It’s the world we live on/in. I am not a slave, I have found remedies to debt, remedies to slavery, which has been effective, here and there. But I don’t wish to take part any longer, in anything. I wish to just leave. Peaceably. Things are going down soon anyway. California may just roll off into the ocean. So why not just leave before the show?

    “God doesn’t make the world this way, we do.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwsua8DdkOg

    It is so true. I tired to manifest a different reality, it didn’t work out. There are too many people. Too many f-wads that wish to crush and berate and mock the competition. I have had it! If this world truly sucks how can anyone, much less God, blame anyone for punching their ticket early! Humans interpreting God’s negative-view for things such as suicide are stupid! Stupid I tell you! The energy source that created all that is isn’t vengeful. He gave us the keys to the castle, whether or not we chose to piss on it or not is moot. And whether we get sick of it and leave early makes not a bit of difference! If anything suicides must be treated with greater care once they pass because we are more sensitive than the rest of the zombies that think that continuing this futility is a good idea.

  117. Marjory Says:

    Does one need to possess a strong B in the social sciences to operate a weblog in this way?

  118. Misty Joganic Says:

    I watched a news item concerning this on TV last night. Thanks for the more in-depth explanation

  119. Meryl Seybold Says:

    Hi, Thanks alot for your amazing post. You’ve helped me a lot.

Leave a Reply